Amazing, I really liked your Appeal for Calm. Although sadly I do not share your confidence that the U.S. government and NATO will act rationally and not take action resulting in many more civilian deaths on both sides (war is simply too profitable for the big business interests which run the U.S., and the media have whipped the American public into such a frenzy that they are demanding war) I am always encouraged when I see people like you take the time to calmly think things through and revise their opinions accordingly. I am afraid it will take many more years and many more innocent lives, but I believe that eventually people like you and the other rational peace-loving people who have posted on this Board will be the majority.
Commie Chris
JoinedPosts by Commie Chris
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20
HIT with a Hammer
by Amazing inin conjunction with my appeal for calm, i might add that when we are working on a construction project and hit our thumb with the hammer, we might scream, cuss, and throw the hammer at something out of a sense of anger with the event and with ourselevs.. if my co-wroker hits me with the hammer, then i might turn and take a swing at him out of an immediate reactive sense to defend myself.
likely, i might cuss him out, scream, and threaten.. as the pain subsides, i might then start to calm, and look at what happened and determine needs to take place.
i could accept an apology and move on, or if i thought it was deliberate action on his part, i might take it to the boss and get some sense of justice.. our nation, and really all good nations, were hit with a hard hammer tuesday.
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view of an American from Afghanistan
by Tatiana inthis was posted on another forum by someone i talk to.....any thoughts on this post?.
"this was sent to me from a friend and is supposedly written by an american that is from afghanistan.
> i've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing .
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Commie Chris
Powerful. I wish every American news organization would give priority coverage to this message, and that every American would read it. It's so important that this rational point of view prevail in the debate now underway as to how America should react to this atrocity.
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Reconciliation, Not Revenge
by Commie Chris inanother rational american calls for atonement and reconciliation rather than revenge: .
>statement on september 11 attack .
david mcreynolds, war resisters league .
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Commie Chris
Another rational American calls for atonement and reconciliation rather than revenge:
>Statement on September 11 Attack
David McReynolds, War Resisters League
As we write, Manhattan feels under siege, with all bridges, tunnels, and subways closed, and tens of thousands of people walking slowly north from Lower Manhattan. As we sit in our offices here at War Resisters League, our most immediate thoughts are of the hundreds if not thousands of New Yorkers who have lost their lives in the collapse of the World Trade Center. The day is clear, the sky is blue, but vast clouds billow over the ruins where so many have died, including a great many rescue workers who were there when the final collapse occurred.
Of course we know that our friends and co-workers in Washington, D.C. have similar thoughts about the ordinary people who have been trapped in the parts of the Pentagon which were also struck by a jet. And we think of the innocent passengers on the hi-jacked jets who were carried to their doom on this day.
We do not know at this time from what source the attack came. We do know that Yasser Arafat has condemned the bombing. We hesitate to make an extended analysis until more information is available but some things are clear. For the Bush Administration to talk of spending hundreds of billions on Star Wars is clearly the sham it was from the beginning, when terrorism can so easily strike through more routine means.
We urge Congress and George Bush that whatever response or policy the U.S. develops it will be clear that this nation will no longer target civilians, or accept any policy by any nation which targets civilians. This would mean an end to the sanctions against Iraq, which have caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians. It would mean not only a condemnation of terrorism by Palestinians but also the policy of assassination against the Palestinian leadership by Israel, and the ruthless repression of the Palestinian population and the continuing occupation by Israel of the West Bank and Gaza.
The policies of militarism pursued by the United States have resulted in millions of deaths, from the historic tragedy of the Indochina war, through the funding of death squads in Central America and Colombia, to the sanctions and air strikes against Iraq. This nation is the largest supplier of "conventional weapons" in the world and those weapons fuel the starkest kind of terrorism from Indonesia to Africa. The early policy support for armed resistance in Afghanistan resulted in the victory of the Taliban and the creation of Osama Bin Laden.
Other nations have also engaged in these policies. We have, in years past, condemned the actions of the Russian government in areas such as Chechnya, the violence on both sides in the Middle East, and in the Balkans. But our nation must take responsibility for its own actions. Up until now we have felt safe within our borders. To wake on a clear day to find our largest city under siege reminds us that in a violent world, none are safe.
Let us seek an end of the militarism that has characterized this nation for decades. Let us seek a world in which security is gained through disarmament, international cooperation, and social justice not through escalation and retaliation. We condemn without reservation attacks such as those which occurred today, which strike at thousands of civilians may these profound tragedies remind us of the impact U.S. policies have had on other civilians in other lands. We also condemn reflexive hostility against people of Arab descent living in this country and urge that Americans recall the part of our heritage that opposes bigotry in all forms.
We are one world. We shall live in a state of fear and terror or we shall move toward a future in which we seek peaceful alternatives to violence, and a more just distribution of the world's resources. As we mourn the many lives lost, our hearts call out for reconciliation, not revenge.
This is not an official statement of the War Resisters League but was drafted immediately after the tragic events occurred.
\Signed and issued by members of the staff and Executive Committee of War Resisters League at the national office, September 11, 2001.
Contact: David McReynolds, 212-674-7268 Joanne Sheehan, 860-889-5337 War
Resisters League, 212-228-0450, [email protected]
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Another Voice of Reason
by Commie Chris inthis article by robert fisk in yesterday's independent presents some relief from the simplistic propaganda of cnn et al.
is there any chance that this atrocity will lead to a rational discussion on preventing further violence rather than further escalations in the violence?
probably not, but i suggest reading fisk's article, as well as my previous post of an e-mail from noam chomsky.. .
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Commie Chris
This article by Robert Fisk in yesterday's Independent presents some relief from the simplistic propaganda of CNN et al. Is there any chance that this atrocity will lead to a rational discussion on preventing further violence rather than further escalations in the violence? Probably not, but I suggest reading Fisk's article, as well as my previous post of an e-mail from Noam Chomsky.
>The wickedness and awesome cruelty of a crushed and humiliated people >
by Robert Fisk
The Independent
>12 September 2001
So it has come to this. The entire modern history of the Middle East -- the collapse of the Ottoman empire, the Balfour declaration, Lawrence of Arabia's lies, the Arab revolt, the foundation of the state of Israel, four Arab-Israeli wars and the 34 years of Israel's brutal occupation of Arab land -- all erased within hours as those who claim to represent a crushed, humiliated population struck back with the wickedness and awesome cruelty of a doomed people. Is it fair -- is it moral -- to write this so soon, without proof, when the last act of barbarism, in Oklahoma, turned out to be the work of home-grown Americans? I fear it is. America is at war and, unless I am mistaken, many thousands more are now scheduled to die in the Middle East, perhaps in America too. Some of us warned of "the explosion to come''. But we never dreamt this nightmare.
And yes, Osama bin Laden comes to mind, his money, his theology, his frightening dedication to destroy American power. I have sat in front of bin Laden as he described how his men helped to destroy the Russian army in Afghanistan and thus the Soviet Union. Their boundless confidence allowed them to declare war on America. But this is not the war of democracy versus terror that the world will be asked to believe in the coming days. It is also about American missiles smashing into Palestinian homes and US helicopters firing missiles into a Lebanese ambulance in 1996 and American shells crashing into a village called Qana and about a Lebanese militia paid and uniformed by America's Israeli ally -- hacking and raping and murdering their way through refugee camps.No, there is no doubting the utter, indescribable evil of what has happened in the United States. That Palestinians could celebrate the massacre of 20,000, perhaps 35,000 innocent people is not only a symbol of their despair but of their political immaturity, of their failure to grasp what they had always been accusing their Israeli enemies of doing: acting disproportionately. All the years of rhetoric, all the promises to strike at the heart of America, to cut off the head of "the American snake'' we took for empty threats. How could a backward, conservative, undemocratic and corrupt group of regimes and small, violent organisations fulfil such preposterous promises? Now we know.
In the hours that followed yesterday's annihilation, I began to remember those other extraordinary assaults upon the US and its allies, miniature now by comparison with yesterday's casualties. Did not the suicide bombers who killed 241 American servicemen and 100 French paratroops in Beirut on 23 October 1983, time their attacks with unthinkable precision? There were just seven seconds between the Marine bombing and the destruction of the French three miles away. Then there were the attacks on US bases in Saudi Arabia, and last year's attempt -- almost successful it now turns out to sink the USS Cole in Aden. And then how easy was our failure to recognise the new weapon of the Middle East which neither Americans nor any other Westerners could equal: the despair-driven, desperate suicide bomber.
And there will be, inevitably, and quite immorally, an attempt to obscure the historical wrongs and the injustices that lie behind yesterday's firestorms. We will be told about "mindless terrorism'', the "mindless" bit being essential if we are not to realise how hated America has become in the land of the birth of three great religions. Ask an Arab how he responds to 20,000 or 30,000 innocent deaths and he or she will respond as decent people should, that it is an unspeakable crime. But they will ask why we did not use such words about the sanctions that have destroyed the lives of perhaps half a million children in Iraq, why we did not rage about the 17,500 civilians killed in Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon. And those basic reasons why the Middle East caught fire last September -- the Israeli occupation of Arab land, the dispossession of Palestinians, the bombardments and state-sponsored executions ... all these must be obscured lest they provide the smallest fractional reason for yesterday's mass savagery.
No, Israel was not to blame -- though we can be sure that Saddam Hussein and the other grotesque dictators will claim so -- but the malign influence of history and our share in its burden must surely stand in the dark with the suicide bombers. Our broken promises, perhaps even our destruction of the Ottoman Empire, led inevitably to this tragedy. America has bankrolled Israel's wars for so many years that it believed this would be cost-free. No longer so. But, of course, the US will want to strike back against "world terror'', and last night's bombardment of Kabul may have been the opening salvo. Indeed, who could ever point the finger at Americans now for using that pejorative and sometimes racist word "terrorism''?
Eight years ago, I helped to make a television series that tried to explain why so many Muslims had come to hate the West. Last night, I remembered some of those Muslims in that film, their families burnt by American-made bombs and weapons. They talked about how no one would help them but God. Theology versus technology, the suicide bomber against the nuclear power. Now we have learnt what this means.
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A Voice of Sanity and Reason
by Commie Chris inlike most people, i watched the events of sept. 11 with horror and sadness.
i have also been horrified, but, sadly, not surprised, by the rush to judgment (no need for a trial or any impartial weighing of evidence) and the growing "nuke the arabs" hysteria of many, but thankfully not all, americans.
the following is an e-mail from noam chomsky, imo one of the great american thinkers of the 20th century.
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Commie Chris
Like most people, I watched the events of Sept. 11 with horror and sadness. I have also been horrified, but, sadly, not surprised, by the rush to judgment (no need for a trial or any impartial weighing of evidence) and the growing "nuke the Arabs" hysteria of many, but thankfully not all, Americans. The following is an e-mail from Noam Chomsky, IMO one of the great American thinkers of the 20th century. As usual, he is a voice of reason and sanity:
>Just got your message. Quick reaction.
Today's attacks were major atrocities. In terms of number of victims they do not reach the level of many others, for example, Clinton's bombing of the Sudan with no credible pretext, destroying half its pharmaceutical supplies and probably killing tens of thousands of people (no one knows, because the US blocked an inquiry at the UN and no one cares to pursue it). Not to speak of much worse cases, which easily come to mind. But that this was a horrendous crime is not in doubt. The primary victims, as usual, were working people: janitors, secretaries, firemen, etc. It is likely to prove to be a crushing blow to Palestinians and other poor and oppressed people. It is also likely to lead to harsh security controls, with many possible ramifications for undermining civil liberties and internal freedom.
The events reveal, dramatically, the foolishness of ideas about "missile defense." As has been obvious all along, and pointed out repeatedly by strategic analysts, if anyone wants to cause immense damage in the US, including weapons of mass destruction, they are highly unlikely to launch a missile attack, thus guaranteeing their immediate destruction. There are innumerable easier ways that are basically unstoppable. But today's events will, nonetheless, be used to increase the pressure to develop these systems and put them into place. "Defense" is a thin cover for plans for militarization of space, and with good PR, even the flimsiest arguments will carry some weight among a frightened public. In short, the crime is a gift to the hard jingoist right, those who hope to use force to control their domains. That is even putting aside the likely US actions, and what they will trigger -- possibly more attacks like this one, or worse. The prospects ahead are even more ominous than they appeared to be before the latest atrocities.
>Noam
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4
The Culture of Cults
by Commie Chris ini dont know if i have mentioned it in any previous posts, but i am a metis.
metis are people of mixed indian and non-indian descent.
we form a distinct national / cultural group in canada, with our own history, or own identity and culture, and our own political movements.
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Commie Chris
I don’t know if I have mentioned it in any previous posts, but I am a Metis. Metis are people of mixed Indian and non-Indian descent. We form a distinct national / cultural group in Canada, with our own history, or own identity and culture, and our own political movements.
I am off to the sub-Arctic (the North-West Territories) today, where I work as a lawyer / Chief Negotiator for Indian communities (in Canada we say “First Nations” rather than Indian) which are negotiating a treaty with the federal government of Canada. I will be there for 2 weeks. I have never met a Native JW in the north.
When I was a JW, I found it curious that there were very, very few other Indian or Metis JWs. In fact, no religious cults (or political cults either, for that matter) have made any serious inroads with First Nations in Canada. With the exception of a few communities where the Pentacostals have taken hold, virtually all Native people in Canada practice a tepid mix of nominal Catholicism (and a few assorted Protestant denominations here and there) and traditional pre-Christian beliefs. There is a very low tolerance for evangelism or religious fanaticism amongst Native people in Canada. Indeed, during my brief flirtation with JWs in the early 90s I was often warned by zealous elders and pioneers that I was too tolerant of the beliefs of my Native relatives and friends. The fact is, the JWs never succeeded in convincing me that there is any one single religious truth.
On the other hand, some cultures seem to be especially fertile grounds for cults. White Americans, and to a slightly lesser extent, white Europeans, seem especially prone to joining cults, despite (or perhaps because of) their relative affluence and higher education than other cultures. Yes, I know that JWs and other cults experience spurts of growth now and then in parts of the Third World, but they generally seem to be strongest, and most long-lived, in the U.S. and Europe.
I have some thoughts on the roots of this phenomenon, which I will share when I get back from my trip and have a little more time, but I am interested in reading the thoughts of others on this subject. Bye for now.
- Chris
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Thanks for the support love, Erica
by angel ini am erica garza rodriguez.
i wanted to write and thank all of you for your interest and support during this long pursuit of justice.. to those wonderful friends who were able to travel to ritzville for the trial, my heart overflows with humble gratitude.. bill bowen (and wife sheila, behind the scene).
b (you know who you are), pat, chris, richard and wife, gsark, baharama and sister, maximus, were you there?
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Commie Chris
Erica: It's so good to hear from you and to hear that the conviction has helped with your healing. I admire your courage throughout this ordeal.
- Chris
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Please help me with the forum
by Simon inkeeping a balance in what is allowed and what is not is very difficult and is more difficult if i have to take action against one person when i have let other things go by others.. it would help a lot if we could stop the personal attacks and some of the name calling & insults that are thrown about.
i know personalities do and will clash but please disagree about the subjects being discussed and not get personal!.
if you think someone is deliberately trying to cause arguments please do not respond to them as this is giving in to what they want.
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Commie Chris
Simon: It is your Board, and technically you have the legal right to do with it as you wish, but I urge you not to introduce any form of “black-balling”. Whether it is done by you alone, or by a “council of participants”, it is still censorship.
Yes, Friday/Yadrif is a vile, slimy, hateful little man. For the most part, his idiotic posts should not even be dignified with a response. But please do not ban him or limit his posting privileges. Censorship is a slippery slope. Today it’s Friday, tomorrow Dunscott, and so on… Freedom of speech has to mean the freedom to say idiotic things, not just popular “upbuilding” things.
Besides, far from hurting Joelbear, Friday's hateful rants had the effect of rallying the members of this Board around him. Anyone reading that thread would have clearly seen that Joel is loved, not because he is gay, but because he is a warm, thoughtful, decent man. He was consistently kind even to Friday, even as Friday continued spouting hatred at him. Friday, on the other hand……
Forums like this Board provide a useful outlet for bigots like Friday to spout their garbage. When they are censored, or prevented from participating in discussions which are open to virtually anyone else, their irrational sense of being “victimized” by a politically correct majority deepens and they can become even more hateful and aggressive. Some may even become violent. It is totally irrational and idiotic, but it does happen. This would be in no ones interest.
Simon, I urge you not to adopt any form of censorship. There is little harm in letting idiots like Friday rant on this Board, and potentially great harm in trying to prevent them from doing so. In my view, any form of censorship will diminish this very interesting Discussion Board.
BTW, regardless of what you choose to do, you have nothing to fear from secular authorities. You clearly have the legal right to ban Friday, or limit his privileges. I just don't think you should do it.
I think this Board is great as it is and I appreciate everything you have done to make it so Simon.
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Official Report From the Sydney Apostate Picnic
by Stephanus inwell, well, well, folks!
it was the first i attended and i must say, it was all very exciting.
i found out that ozziepost is not his real name at all - it's really oswald q. postenhoffenmuller!
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Commie Chris
Now I REALLY want to meet Prisca. I'll be in Borneo in Dec. How 'bout having your next gathering there?
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Ritsfield Victory!
by silentlambs inhello everyone,.
i am bill's wife.he just called me from washington and told me to let you all know that erica won her case today!.
that sick child molesting bastard is in jail now as we speak.. his sentencing is set for september 24th i think.. one down many more to go.. thanks to all who have supported this cause.. sheila
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Commie Chris
Mommy: I am a libertarian civil rights lawyer. I strongly believe in the presumption of innocence and due process and I believe that far too many people are imprisoned for far too long. However, there is strong evidence that very, very few child molesters are ever rehabilitated or “cured” of their disease, and many (probably most) will re-offend once released from prison. I have known many survivors of childhood sexual abuse. The damage caused by this crime (it's not a "mistake" mommy, it's a very serious crime) can be immense and very long lasting. Unless they voluntarily submit to chemical castration, child molesters cannot be trusted and should be put away forever in order to protect children. This is not “revenge” - it is common sense and probably the only way to prevent a very serious crime.